N'écoutes pas si n'a pas des friandises

Bonjour
Je reviens vers vous parce que ma chienne qui est super obéissante des qu'elle que des friandises , n'en a plus rien à faire de moi quand j'ai rien à lui donner
Elle va avoir 8mois


Autre problème j'ai une 2 ème chienne qui va sur ses 4mois et pas de soucis si ce n'est que ma 1ere agit comme si elle était jalouse !
Quand j'achète deux os , un chacune , ma 1ere n'accepte pas que la plus jeune en ait un! Elle lui prend de force !alors qu'elle en avait déjà un !!

Comment réagir ?

Autre chose en sortie quand elles sont toute les deux détaché ma 1ere joue très violemment avec la plus jeune qui se retrouve recouverte de boue tant elle fait des roulé boulet....
Et aujourd'hui elle avait le bout de l'oreille qui saignait !!

Pourquoi ma 1ere ne se rend pas compte qu'elle lui fait mal?

Encore autre chose sur ma 1ere.. la sortir en laisse est devenu une contrainte pour moi je n'y prend plus plaisir du tout tellement elle tire !! Elle m'emporte ! j'ai super mal au bras à chaque fois
Je lui ai commandé un harnais d'éducation avec l'attache devant en espérant que ça ira mieux..

Je l'ai emmené à un cours d'éducation dimanche et pff elle écoutait rien..
Tous les chiens marchait au pied rythme moi j'étais pathétique enroulé dans la laisse parce que ma chienne tournait autour de moi ! j'avais honte j'ai l'impression d'avoir raté son éducation quand j'ai vu tous ces chiens qui écoutaient si bien !!
J'arrive pas à imaginer que je puisse en faire de même avec la mienne

C'est une école du chiot positive ?
On s'en fiche d'avoir honte ou pas... ^^ La honte nous fait faire les mauvais choix... ^^ chaque chiens va à son rythme


Il faut les séparer dès que tu donnes qq chose, mes chiens je les sépare car Bb ne se gène pas pour prendre son os... et l'os d'Anoki,tant qu'à faire!

Les jeux violents, malheureusement... je ne sais que te conseiller les autres te répondront là dessus

Pour le harnais, nul doute que le animalin réglera le soucis.

Tes chiennes sont surtout des chiots et ça, il ne faut pas l'oublier !
Les chiens que tu as vu lors de ton cours d'éducation ont surement été comme tes chiennes sont. Et dis toi que leur maitre ont certainement du passer des heures à les travailler pour obtenir une marche au pied correcte !

Ne te décourage surtout pas, les maîtres mots de l'éducations sont le calme, la patience et la persévérance

Piou a écrit:

Pour le harnais, nul doute que le animalin réglera le soucis.

C'est une aide, pas une baguette magique.
Si la marche en laisse n'est pas travaillée, le chien continuera de tirer.

Il y a pas mal de topics sur le forum sur la marche en laisse, tu devrais les lire, ça t'aidera

Eh bien pour moi ça a été une baguette magique,dans ce cas!

Piou a écrit:

Eh bien pour moi ça a été une baguette magique,dans ce cas!

T'as bien de la chance dans ce cas .

Mais je préfère prévenir car pour la majorité des personnes, ce harnais est une vraie aide mais l'apprentissage de la marche en laisse en plus est nécessaire (et utile)

Oui, mais perso, je ne suis pas une excitée de "la marche au pied"...
Mon chien marche en laisse sans tirer (je revis d'ailleurs... depuis le premier jour où je lui ai mis ce harnais!) c'est déjà pas mal! Pti à pti on l'habitude à l'attache sur le dos. Ouf!

Oui j'ai vu Plusieurs méthodes pour la marche en laisse
S'arrêter des que le tire elle s'en fiche elle s'assoit et des que j'avance elle reprend de plus belle !
Avec la friandises ben elle reste à côté juste pour l'avoir mais des que j'en ai pas elle repart devant en tirant comme une deraté! Elle s'étrangle à moitié des fois mais elle s'arrête pas pour autant


J'essaie de pas me décourager mais j'avoue que parfois ça me paraît tellement loin pour réussir à ça!
Je n'ai pas pu l'amener à l'école du chiot car je bosse tous les samedi malheureusement c'était une grosses déception
J'ai même demandé à mon patron d'avoir au moins juste le samedi matin mais il a pas voulu

Piou, je ne suis pas une excitée de la marche au pied non plus mais le harnais n'a pas été une baguette magique...
Un peu comme la chienne de Jennifer, mon chien tire au bout de la laisse, je m'arrête, il fait un bond en arrière, je démarre, il retire et etc.

Ceci dit au bout de bientôt une année, il tire moins, petit à petit mais... c'est pas gagné encore.

Ah ouais? Bon on peut dire qu'il aide dans ce cas...

A lire: https://educationcanine.forumactif.com/t16976-le-ratio-alterne-ou-donner-des-friandises-de-facon-aleatoire

https://educationcanine.forumactif.com/t15817-le-transfert-de-valeur

j'ai mis 11 mois pour que gaia arrête de tirer en laisse
grâce l'approche Escafre
appliquer à la technique dite de l'arbre
mais surtout
beaucoup de travail (4 heures par jour en moyenne )
ça n'a pas été tout cuit! mais avec la longue (4 mètres )
et le travail en libre
l'étude des postures et des caresses le chemin a été long
aujourd'hui elle ne tire plus ( ou tres occasionnellement si j'ai mal géré chat écureil )

eleonorea a écrit:

j'ai mis 11 mois pour que gaia arrête de tirer en laisse

mais surtout
beaucoup de travail (4 heures par jour en moyenne )

Un sacerdoce!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ouille ouille s'il faut quatre heures par jour, je ne suis pas prête d'y arriver...

Jennifer, à mon avis tu utilises la friandise comme un leurre et non une récompense

Pour la "jalousie" il faudrait anticiper, faire en sorte qu'elle ne puisse pas agir comme cela. Les séparer déjà tant que le soucis n'est pas réglé Mettre une séparation.

Oui c'est vrai que j'utilise mal la récompense ... en lisant les articles c'est ma faute ... mais est rattrapable? Car c'est bien ancré dans sa tête déjà

Mais elle voit quand j'ai quelque chose ou non elle est trop maligne !

Oui du coup je sépare le temps que la tension passe après elle se retrouve et dorme ensemble

Faut vraiment que j'arrive à leur apprendre la marche en laisse

non ce n'est pas rattrapable ... fais la piquer empailler et tu n'auras plus de soucis !

mode humour noir fini bien sur que c'est réparable, ce sera sans doutes plus long que si commencé des chiot mais ca finira par arriver !

et cherche les post qui parlent de "cliker" avec 2 chiens... ca apprend le partage des ressources aussi !

Pour moi non plus pas de baguette magique , un long apprentissage.
Après pour la marche au pied c'est une histoire d'attention ( différente du rappel ou suivie naturel)

Pour les jeux brusques il faut intervenir si trop brusques ou si la petite en a marre
pour la jalousie sépare et peut être travailler le partage de ressources
pour les friandise pareil que kali

Citation :

Dog Training Tools: Don't use food as a bribe! Don't let your tools become a crutch!
Dr. Ian Dunbar  |  Mon, 09/27/2010 - 12:06

A hot topic for sure! An incredibily important one too. No topic is more misunderstood than the use of food in dog training. By all means we should use training tools but there is indeed a lot of urgency to phase them out. Here I discuss the appropriate use, and misuse, of food in training.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/dog-training-tools-dont-use-food-bribe-dont-let-your-tools-become-crutch

Citation :

Bribes!
Dr. Ian Dunbar | Tue, 09/07/2010 - 09:26

Some forty years ago, when I started to re-popularize the use of food lures and rewards in dog training, many trainers were adamantly opposed. ”I don’t want to bribe my dog.” “I want the dog to do it for me.” “That’s sissy training.” I knew these knee-jerk statements stemmed from a lack of understanding of basic learning principles and so I wrote a number of articles, explaining how the temporary use of food as lures and rewards was very different from using food as bribes.

I considered the prevailing preference for leash prompting and punishment over food lure/reward training to be a major quality of life issue for dogs and their owners. Reliable off-leash, verbal control means more off-leash walks. Training on-leash to try to establish off-leash reliability understandably took forever (often several years), whereas the five-stage, lure/reward training technique was by far the quickest way to teach a dog (and almost any animal) to perform cued responses, reliably, off-leash, at a distance, with distractions and without the continued need of any training aid. Lure/reward training was quick and easy but also produced more reliable results. Yes, we used lures and rewards in the training process but their use was phased out extremely quickly.

These days though, bribing is fast becoming the norm for those that use food in training. So many trainers and hence so many owners continue to use food lures and rewards throughout the entire training program. If the same item is used as both a lure and a reward, then the process approximates bribing. Even in the clicker world, where specific lures are not always used, presenting the food (in hand and pouch) beforehand muddies the waters and consequently, response-reliability suffers.

Now certainly, the liberal use of food and toys has made the training arena a much happier place for dogs and their owners. Many classes and consultations have become classical conditioning extravaganzas and trainers are doing a great job of producing dogs with better temperaments and fewer behavior problems. But basic manners have taken a tumble. Standards have dropped. Far too many dogs only respond when the trainer is in training mode and has food in their hand or food pouch.

Reliable off-leash verbal control (emergency distance sits or downs, stays and recalls) and good leash manners are important. This is what dog owners want and if they don’t get it, they’ll seek instruction elsewhere.

Yes, of course, we want to continue to use food and toy lures and rewards. Using rewards increases the ease, effectiveness and enjoyment of training and using lures speeds up the whole process and makes training quicker. We certainly don’t want to throw out the baby with the bath water. However, we want to use food lures and rewards to quickly and effectively teach dogs to respond reliably to verbal cues when off-leash and at a distance and without the continued need of any training aid, especially without the continued need for food lures and food rewards. Yes we should use food lures and rewards but also, we should check that response-reliability is not contingent on the trainer having food in their hand or on their person.

Food lures must be phased out during Stage One of lure/reward training, after just 6-12 trials in the very first training session. This is easy to do because dogs learn hand-signals so quickly and effortlessly. Then you’ll have the confidence that you don’t need food in your hand to get the dog to respond. Hand signals may then be used as effective lures to teach dogs the meaning of verbal commands. At the end of Stage One, test response-reliability to verbal cues only (standing absolutely still and with back turned). If the dog doesn’t sit when just one yard away with your back turned, what makes you think he would sit when he’s forty yards away chasing a rabbit, another dog, or a child on a skateboard?

From the outset, only reward the dog on a differential reinforcement schedule — at the very most only reward the dog for above average responses and then progressively refine criteria and ask more-for-less, with the dog receiving better rewards for better responses and the very best rewards (life rewards and jackpots) for the very best responses. By the end of Stage Two, eliminate the use of food rewards entirely and replace them with much more effective life rewards, so that the dog becomes internally motivated and the responses become self-reinforcing. Now you’ll have the confidence that you don’t need food in your food pouch to get the dog to respond.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/bribes

Citation :

Are treats a bribe when you train your dog?
Eric Goebelbecker | Tue, 11/24/2009 - 12:46

One of the main reason people resist using treats to train their dog is that they don't want to "bribe" them. This is perfectly understandable; one shouldn't have to bribe a dog to do something. However, if you are using food the right way your are not bribing your dog, you are rewarding her.

Let's take a look in the dictionary (Merriam Webster Online):

bribe: "money or favor given or promised in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust."

reward: "recompense (to give something to by way of compensation as for a service rendered or damage incurred) "

Clearly, these are two very different words. A bribe influences while a reward compensates. And this difference is exactly how you can tell if you are using treats the right way.

If your dog needs to see the food before she will do something, it's a bribe. And, not to put too fine a point on it, you're doing it wrong. It's an easy mistake to make: in lure/reward training we use the food to get the position or motion we want. But then we "fade the lure" (get the food out of our hands) as fast as possible. If we don't do this, we end up with a "show me the money" dog.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/are-treats-bribe-when-you-train-your-dog

Citation :

Food Critics
Dr. Ian Dunbar | Wed, 11/28/2007 - 12:32

Nearly every trained animal you see in films and on television has been taught using food lures and rewards. Killer whales are trained using fish. Grizzly bears are trained using marshmallows and soda pop. Obviously, trainers dealing with such large, potentially dangerous animals do not want killer whales and grizzly bears forming negative associations with training, or with the trainer! Let's not discriminate against the canine species. Isn't it long overdue for our best friends to have equal opportunity with the rest of the trained-animal kingdom?

Any criticism of using food as a training tool may actually be applied to the use of any training tool, including leash-corrections and praise.

Excessive praise, or correction, may over-excite your dog. Your dog may not respond when off-leash, or when you do not have praise in your heart. Your dog is hardly going to respect someone who regularly needs to resort to physical force and painful punishments. And, what if your dog doesn't like food, you might say? Well, what if your dog doesn't like leash corrections? Surely, such woolly logic should not stop owners from using food lures and rewards to great effect to teach their dogs to enjoy training. And, if the dog doesn’t like food, then let’s teach him to like food. The process is really not so different from teaching dogs to love children and strangers.

The use of any training tool has its advantages and disadvantages. Do not forgo the magical advantage of using food lures and rewards just because of one or two supposed disadvantages. Learn to use food in training correctly and overcome the minor disadvantages so that you may take full advantage of many beneficial effects of food lures and rewards.

Food is the very best lure for most dogs and for most owners. However, once you have become adept at food luring and reward training, you will be able to use chewtoys, squeaky toys, and snapping fingers to lure or reward your dog. Pieces of kibble and the occasional freeze-dried liver treat are the most convenient and easy-to-use rewards for initial training but you need to change to more meaningful "life rewards" as soon as possible. Of course, if you have a warm heart, an expressive voice, and affectionate hands, praise and petting will be more than a sufficient thank-you for your puppy.

"Use food in training? That's sissy training"
Maybe so, but it works! And I'll tell you what, if carrying a wand and wearing a pink tutu would help train dogs and save their lives, I'd do that, too. In addition to their obvious applications in all aspects of teaching manners, food lures and food rewards may be more importantly used for behavior modification and temperament training. In fact, food lures and rewards are so effective, their use should be mandatory.

In addition to being incredibly effective, there is an entire century of scientific research on the topic of behavioral modification and the consequential evolution of modern-day, psychological training techniques. Perhaps some trainers are simply resistant, or scared, to adopt anything new, progressive, or more sophisticated.

It would be a shame if your puppy's education were to suffer simply because you had misgivings about using food lures and rewards. Consequently, here follow answers to other common concerns about using food in training.

"My dog will get fat!"
If you feed your dog too much, she will get fat. However, training treats should not be extra calories, and they should not be junk food. Food lures and rewards are part of your dog's normal daily diet (primarily consisting of dry kibble) but used periodically during training rather than given all at once at dinner time.

Each morning, measure out your dog's daily ration of kibble and put it in a handy container. (If your dog puts on weight, measure out less kibble each day and exercise your dog more. If your dog loses weight, measure out more kibble each day.) Throughout each day, use some kibble as lures and rewards for training, and stuff the remainder in hollow chewtoys.

A small number of treats (e.g., dog biscuits, or freeze-dried liver) may be included as part of your dog's daily dietary allotment of calories and these are best reserved for specialized training exercises, such as housetraining, park recalls, and socialization and training with children, men, and strangers.

"My dog will be forever on the scrounge, begging for food, and worrying at food in my hand!"
Not necessarily correct! You may use food distractions and rewards to teach the dog not to scrounge or worry at food in your hand. In fact, the only way to teach dogs not to scrounge or worry at food in your hand is by using food in training. In addition, you may teach your dog to take food (from your hand or dog bowl) only after being given a specific instruction, such as "Rover, Take It" or "Chow." The dog must learn the difference between children's hot dogs and doggy treats.

"Food makes my dog over-excited."
If food over-excites your dog, you need to use food as a reward to teach your dog to be calm. The DoggiCalm training technique is quick and easy. Let your dog sniff a piece of kibble in your hand, ignore the dog's boisterous bouncing and barking, wait for your dog to sit and then offer the kibble. Repeat the procedure a number of times. Delay giving the food reward for a couple of seconds after your dog sits and your dog will remain calm for a couple of seconds. With each successive repetition, progressively increase the delay and hence the period of calmness. After hand feeding just a dozen pieces of kibble, you'll have a dog that calms down quickly and sits automatically whenever you have food in your hand.

"It's demeaning to use food treats."
I have it from the highest authority that dogs strongly disagree with the above statement. On the contrary, dogs consider not receiving food rewards for their efforts to be demeaning.

I get paid when I write doggy books and give veterinary seminars. Most of you get paid when you work. And strange though it may seem, puppies and dogs would like to be on the payroll as well.

"My dog responds only when I have food."
Most probably because you have yet to fully grasp the principles of lure/reward training. Read on. Learn how to replace food lures with verbal commands and hand signals within your first training session, and learn how to phase out and replace food rewards with more meaningful incentives, such as life rewards and internal motivation.

"I don't want to bribe my dog."
Neither do I. Bribing is largely ineffective. Using food as lures, rewards, distractions, and general motivators is far more precise and effective than using food as bribes. Parents and politicians quickly learn that bribery does not work. However, luring, rewarding, and motivating do work. Extremely well, in fact. Lures teach dogs what we want them to do; rewards teach dogs to want to do what we want them to do; and motivators teach dogs to be eager and attentive on cue.

"I want my dog to respect me."
The above statement camouflages some pretty scary logic — that a dog would respect you more if you trained using correction and punishment, rather than lures and rewards. Duh!?! Beware of those, who insist that harassment, bullying, and physical domination are necessary to get dogs to show respect. Dogs' brains boggle at this perverse notion. On the contrary, you will gradually earn your dog's trust and respect with understanding, compassion, and intelligent education via lure/reward training.

We all want dogs to respect and be proud of their human companions. And especially we would like dogs to respect the wishes and feelings of children. Lure/reward training is absolutely the most expedient way for children to gain the respect of their dogs.

Consider for example, a child who takes five minutes to lure/reward train a dog to happily and willingly come, sit, and lie down off-leash. The child requests the dog to respond, and the dog respects the child's instructions and gladly obliges. Or put another way, the child commands the dog (in a squeaky voice), and the dog complies. Most important though, the dog complies happily and willingly. And when it comes to children and dogs, happy and willing compliance is the only way.

"I want my dog to do it for me!"
I want my dog to want to do it for me. I want dogs to voluntarily follow instructions because they have learned it is in their best interests to do so. Indeed, prompt and willing compliance are the cornerstones of dog-friendly dog training. Certainly it may be possible to coerce, or force, a dog to do things the trainer's way, especially if the dog is on leash and physically and psychologically held captive by restraint and force. However, when off-leash and out of arm's reach, the dog might just ignore the trainer's commands, leaving the trainer to train by himself.

"My dog doesn't like food."
Since food lure/reward training is so amazingly easy, efficient, and effective, I would teach every dog to like food, before commencing training. Puppies may easily be taught to appreciate food, simply by hand-feeding individual pieces of kibble throughout the day, rather than all at once from a bowl at mealtimes. For adult dogs, instruct them to sit and take a piece of kibble before every enjoyable activity, such as being invited on the couch, or chasing a ball. Soon your dog will enjoy the kibble as much as he enjoys the thrill of couch-time and tennis balls combined.

Phase Out The Use Of Training Tools As Soon As Possible
Do not become dependent upon the training tools you use. Training tools are meant to temporarily facilitate training, not to permanently reduce reliability. Phase out the use of training lures and rewards as soon as possible, otherwise your dog will only respond when you have them. Once your dog is trained, he will gladly oblige your wishes and then your temporary training tools will no longer be necessary.

Training lures become unnecessary as soon as your puppy learns the meaning of your verbal requests and hand signals. You should be able to phase out training lures completely during the very first session. Similarly, training rewards are no longer necessary once they have been replaced with more meaningful incentives — life rewards, such as dinner time, couch time, tummy rubs, car rides, walks, playing tug, playing fetch, etc. You may begin to phase out training rewards during the first session, by asking your puppy to progressively perform more and more for a single piece of kibble.

Use Training Tools That Your Dog Finds Pleasant And Enjoyable
Most people understand dog training to involve manipulating or modifying a dog's natural behaviors. The most common approaches include: 1. Increasing the frequency of desirable behaviors (using rewards), e.g., being calm; 2. Teaching a dog to perform desired behaviors reliably on cue (using lures and rewards), e.g., come, sit, down and stay; 3. Decreasing the frequency of undesirable behaviors (using instructive reprimands), e.g., jumping-up and pulling on-leash; and 4. Teaching a dog to reliably not perform undesired behaviors on cue (using lures and instructive reprimands), e.g., don’t touch and shush. However, there is a great deal more to training than behavior modification.

During the training process, your dog forms many positive and negative associations about training and about the trainer. If you use pleasant training tools (lures and rewards), your dog will learn to love training and the trainer. However, if you use unpleasant training tools (restraint, physical coercion, and scary or painful punishments), your dog will learn to dislike training, and the trainer, i.e., you!

http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/food-critics

Citation :

5 Myths About Training Dogs With Treats
Eric Goebelbecker | Thu, 11/12/2009 - 23:47

Another article discussing experts that are critical of Cesar Millan has hit the Internet. Actually, I think two articles were published this week, but I can't find the link for the other.

Truth be told, I only really skim these articles lately. They all follow the same general outline:

Someone or some group of people who know an awful lot about animal behavior/dogs/wolves are critical of Cesar Millan's methods. Cesar pays some token lip service to established science while holding the line on his pack theory hogwash. National Geographic, if they even bother to comment, really don't care because they have great ratings and that's really what matters.

I do sometimes jump to the comments to see if there's anything interesting there. Unfortunately, I frequently see the same few myths about training with food, and they make me cranky and sarcastic. (Ok, more cranky and sarcastic.) So, by gathering them together in one place, I'm hoping that Cesar's fans can locate and use them more easily and I'll find them easier to ignore in this normalized form. (By the way, you'll want to copy and paste the parts in bold, guys.)

Treats are bribes. This myth is the old standard. The "Greensleeves" of treat disparagement, if you will. Let's be clear: a bribe and a reinforcer are not the same thing. A bribe is produced before the desired behavior, a reinforcer is produced after the behavior. Yes, some people do show their dogs a treat before asking them to do something. They're doing it wrong.
If you use food, your dogs will not obey you without it. Here again is a myth based on bad training. The only reason your dog would refuse to perform without food is because she's used to seeing it beforehand. You're doing it wrong.
Dogs should work because they want to please you. Some people seem to think that dogs should find working for their people inherently rewarding, like Jeeves and Wooster, or Smithers and Burns. When you think about it, it's pretty silly. Yes, it's true that dogs and humans have lived side-by-side for millennia, and as a result we are uniquely suited to work together, but the idea that this relationship is so one-sided that dogs will perform for no tangible reward makes no sense and is anthropomorphism, plain and simple. It's nice, it's romantic, and it makes for a great tear-jerker, but sorry folks; Disney dogs exist only in Disney movies.
Dogs should work for praise. Closely related to the the previous myth is the idea that dogs find praise inherently rewarding. Some dogs actually do find praise rewarding, and it's also possible to condition praise as a reinforcer (it may even happen as a side effect of a good relationship), but the idea that all or even most dogs are eager to work for just a pat on the head or a "good dog" is more fantasy.
Training for treats is fine for tricks, but not for "real training." I really find this one mystifying, but actually see it most often expressed by trainers. Is it that dogs instinctively know the difference between tricks and "real training" and take one less seriously than the other? Or maybe that behaviors trained without food are more reliable? What makes them more reliable? A lack of food? An emphasis on punishment or the threat of punishment? Maybe it's that inherently rewarding praise? Why would one reinforcer always lead to less reliable performance than another, regardless of the situation and individual dog?

The fact is (you'll want to stop reading now if you don't like facts) food is just another tool. It's the most commonly used reinforcer for trainers that emphasize positive reinforcement for a very simple reason: it's frequently the greatest common denominator for reinforcers. Eight new dogs. One hour. One room. Eight handlers, at least six of them have no experience. Yup, food. Try some tug later, but there's a good chance a couple of dogs just won't play in the presence of a bunch of new dogs.

But if you're using food wisely it'll be out of the picture pretty quickly, and only used as a random reward once a new behavior is trained. You'll also be introducing alternative rewards like play and yes, praise, too.

The idea that training with treats leads to people walking around with treats in their pockets for as long as they have their dogs is based on a poor understanding of how good dog training works.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/5-myths-about-training-dogs-treats